Episode Transcript

Matthew Barker, The Chatpreneur

Matthew (00:01:18.925)

Hi, Jam. Thank you for having me on. Congratulations on getting to Episode 12. It's been a blast listening and learning from all the great guests that you've had.

Jam (00:01:26.905)

Awesome. So we'd love to hear your story. So how did you get into digital marketing and now a chatbot preneur or chatpreneur?

Matthew (00:01:35.905)

Yeah, well, my family was a family of entrepreneurs here in Reno, Nevada. Both my grandfathers ran their own businesses. So I always had that entrepreneurial drive and curiosity to just bring value to people and not necessarily have somebody else own my time. How I got into digital marketing specifically was basically by trial and error. I've worked at a health care startup, a restaurant, coffee, you name it. I've probably done it. Christmas Lights app that I made.

Matthew (00:02:06.015)

And yet, well, it wasn't an app. I should reference that. It's a map that I packaged. It will be coming up at some point. But each time it seemed like I just got pushed into a role where I had a knack for knowing how to connect with audiences and which channel was going to be most efficient. And even with chatbots that's the challenge, is how to spread the word, how to connect with potential customers and how to be an effective digital marketer still, even though it's a different medium of doing so.

Jam (00:02:36.655)

Cool, and are you loving it so far?

Matthew (00:02:38.545)

You know, it's a challenge. It's a new one. I think I'm very passionate about the product and the potential that lies within it. For each small business owner that I go up to, especially here in Reno, Nevada, I see massive potential for chatbots to help offset a lot of challenges that these businesses have with responding to their customers. And as you hit on my personal slogan is enjoy every day, not some day.

Matthew (00:03:08.155)

The reason why that is my personal slogan is because I see a lot of my friends who get into entrepreneurship or digital marketing or the likes or anyone, you know, especially here in America. I don't know how it is in New Zealand, but we tend to look towards something else that we hope is going to bring us that freedom and enjoyment of life that we all so desire. But my belief is that pure enjoyment in life is in the moment and is in every day, no matter what that day is.

Matthew (00:03:36.775)

And I'm not saying every day is good, but as long as you make the most of it, you enjoy the moment. Something like starting a chatbot business will become a little bit easier despite the challenges.

Jam (00:03:47.155)

That's awesome. That's why I love it.

Matthew (00:03:49.255)

If you're building chatbots, please enjoy them. Don't do it if you're not, go do something else. I encourage you to .

What is a Chatpreneur?

Jam (00:03:56.275)

Totally agree. OK, let's just go back to basics. Before we even spoke, I haven't heard of the term chatpreneur. I have an idea what it is. But in your own words, Matthew, what exactly is a chatpreneur?

(00:04:09.775)

Anybody who sells chatbots straight to market, straight to consumer. You know, a lot of your guests are designers. They work at bigger companies. I know you run one as well. Hillary's over there in Detroit just killing it with Matthew Black Ops to them being great in the community. But it's just anyone who sells chatbots or digital marketing services. You know, I'm not a part of the big company. I'm solo right now, but I'd love to have a team eventually. But that's pretty much it.

Jam (00:04:36.655)

Awesome. OK, you've heard it here and Matthew is coining that term. I don't know if he's going to.

Matthew (00:04:42.985)

I should trademark that. You know, the chatbot world, as we said with the business name the chatbot guy.

Jam (00:04:48.035)

Yeah.

Matthew (00:04:48.595)

It's a little competitive. I think I actually need to jump on that. Please don't air this until I get that trademark. You know, I don't want to be run out of town with that. I'm going to go to trademark that.

Chatpreneur Challenges

Jam (00:05:01.195)

Ok, so as we all know, at least in the industry, chatbot technology, I mean, it's not new, but it is right now in its growth phase, but still new to the public. Right. So educating the market is today's challenge. So what do you do to educate and get potential leads on board with chatbots?

Matthew (00:05:23.665)

I'm big on going backwards to go forwards, so I start at the root of their problems and how a chatbot could solve them for most.

Matthew (00:05:33.695)

I look at a website or look at a Facebook page and I see that if they do have a following, that there is a place for chatbot. I wouldn't go on talking about my product if it didn't solve their problem. That's a waste of time for myself and the potential lead. And we only have so much time in a day to contact people and give them a solution. But education, I think it starts with really not introducing chatbots is something foreign.

Matthew (00:06:00.895)

How I introduce it is I usually use the example of Siri or Alexa because people are “What’s a chatbot?” And instead of going on, hey it's just an automated conversation, I typically point to Alexa and Siri first because most of your users have introduced themselves to Alexa and Siri. They know them, they're familiar with them. And it breaks down the barrier of this being an abstract concept and takes it into the concrete. So that's first. And then I go into the benefits of what it can do, especially if you're already invested in digital marketing a bit.

Matthew (00:06:35.845)

You have a website, a Facebook and Instagram. I typically talk about how it's 24/7, how it's personalized, how it can target your customers, in my opinion. This is my opinion, better than the other outlets you have, a.k.a. email marketing opt ins, website homepages, and really it starts from there and then I have a conversation about conversations. You know, I hopefully leave them in the right direction and see whether the product could really solve that problem.

Jam (00:07:04.435)

You're right. I mean, Siri and Alexa is at least something that they go, oh, yeah, I've heard of that. I've used Siri, you know, I mean, and so on. And you can actually start off from there. That's awesome.

Matthew (00:07:17.365)

Yeah. And when you're starting out with someone who doesn't know much about it, with any idea, this can go for anything. So break it down and make it concrete, make it relatable. You know, if it continues to be foreign, it's not going to capture that. And it needs to become relatable as quickly as possible. Then you have someone on board, you have attention and you can have a better conversation that hopefully leads to a higher percentage shot of you winning over a client and growing as a business.

60 Second Pitch to get Chatbot Leads

Jam (00:07:48.595)

I wonder because we had that little chat prior to this episode and you did mention you used this Matthew Barker's 60 Second Pitch, right?

Matthew (00:08:00.855)

Yeah, I did. I did that. That was a great story. So we have this group here. It's one of the better groups you can be a part of called BNI. Not even sure what the initials stand for, but it's a networking group and they have a person from each business. So your dentist, your banker, carpet cleaner, you name it, they're there and there's about thirty to forty five of them. And basically each meeting, they have an opportunity for you to give a commercial.

Matthew (00:08:27.265)

So say you have an offer for October or you're in need of something. You know, I need fatheads for the rally I'm going to tomorrow. Hey, there's a graphic designer over there who can do that. It's a very good tight knit group. I had the opportunity to speak there because my cousin, Candy Evans here in Reno, owns a digital marketing firm and she needed a substitute. So I got to give her pitch and then I got a minute for my pitch.

Matthew (00:08:54.265)

And I'll be honest, it was the first time I pitched chatbots. I hadn't practised at all. And I got a minute. It went over pretty well. I got reviews from multiple business owners within the group. I even made a referral while I was there. It went over pretty well and it was the same sort of pitch that, you know, I just told you about educating the client, make it likeable and make it relatable. And first off, your best pitch is no pitch at all. Your best pitch is really relating to your customer and listening first and getting value.

Matthew (00:09:27.625)

For instance, getting on this podcast right now, I don't know if you remember my first message, Jam, but I just offered you, support. I love your podcast. I think you did this great. Here's one thing I'm looking for as an attentive listener, and I hope that you do well in the future. And then our conversation continued on. So not to say the 60 Second Pitch isn’t important and it didn't do well there, but your best 60 second pitch is really listening to customer needs first.

Jam (00:09:59.215)

Awesome. When we're done with the episode, you better tell me what your 60 second pitch is. Just try.

Matthew (00:10:05.335)

I'll give it to you. Sorry, I was thinking of the answer for that. The reason why I say that answer is because I do think there's a place in time for 60 second pitches. Don't get me wrong, I mean, you can watch infomercials here in America all day and I think they do spectacular. But with a product like mine and at the scale that I'm at and whom I'm targeting, the best thing you can do is give value first. If there's any piece of advice I have for someone who's new, who doesn't know how to approach people about selling chatbots or bridging that gap, get value first.

Matthew (00:10:39.435)

I had one life insurance firm. He needed blog help. So I said my pitch to him was, look, I eat blogs for breakfast. I can totally help you make that blog pop. And I think there's a place for my product within your digital marketing scheme. And I think it would take you to another level that you're not at right now.

Jam (00:10:57.505)

I like the “another level”.

Matthew (00:10:59.575)

Was that a convincing pitch? Is that convincing, "I eat blogs for breakfast". It did work, it got me a coffee meeting, so I'm not going to knock it. I don't know if I'll use that again.

Jam (00:11:11.125)

My favorite part is the next level because it's such a powerful it's like a powerful phrase that says I'll take your business to the next level. It's like, OK, I'm listening. Right.

Matthew (00:11:23.635)

I definitely am a tag line guy, you know, enjoy every day, not some day. Definitely love to make stuff stick and pop. And I don't think I've ever met a business owner who's motivated, especially in some of the niches that I target. Life insurance agents, real estate agents. We have one on every corner here in Reno, Nevada. I haven't met one that doesn't want to get to the next level in their business and isn't willing to invest as long as you provide them value.

Matthew (00:11:53.095)

So, yeah, saying that you can get to the next level is totally convincing. And I think that does pan out long term when you're approaching people about chatbots.

“Cashing in on Chatbots”

Jam (00:19:48.195)

Cool. And it's good that you mentioned money, because my next question is sort of a touchy subject, really. It's, quote unquote, cashing in on sandlots because I've just saw this company. I'm not going to mention, but that's sort of their tagline and there's a lot of, oh God, thousands of dollars and so on. And there's even now, I think, an advertising platform that's going to, and that's for another episode, by the way so stay tuned, guys.

Matthew (00:20:17.235)

Up selling the audience. So stay tuned. Stay tuned. We're going to have more about this stuff.

Jam (00:20:22.095)

Yeah.

Matthew (00:20:22.455)

Yeah. So, you know, there's a great Bible verse in Ecclesiastes about this, and it's "there's nothing new under the sun" and there never is. There's always going to be someone guaranteeing something that's fairy tale. And that to me is fairy tale. Now, the only way that would become reality is if the company they're selling to already has a huge audience and a huge established base of people that at the margin say the chatbot gave them five cents per or whatever it was at such a scale that technically they got thousands or millions.

Matthew (00:20:58.335)

But in my world, in the businesses that I sell to and for anyone out there wanting to do what I do, who wants to sell small to mid-sized businesses, which is where the market's going to be at in the next five years, that simply is not the case. And it's just bad policy to oversell and guarantee something that's not going to happen. Unfortunately, in the internet age, a lot of people can get by scamming like that because they put the positive testimonials and its positivity bias.

Matthew (00:21:29.685)

And you never see the bad reviews. You know, you never see the situations where that didn't happen and the client paid too much money for something that didn't pan out the way they wanted to. My advice for anyone out there who is going to buy a chatbot or sell a chatbot, make sure to ask those detailed questions of how that's going to do that. And don't be afraid to press and play with the numbers and be informed.

Matthew (00:21:55.275)

Don't let someone sell you that this is going to solve all your problems because the chatbot is only as effective as the amount of people who go to it. So the chatbot can't sell millions if there's not a funnel getting you to the chatbot. What I would say to that is it's the Internet age. You've got to be informed. You've got to stay on top of things and make sure that whatever someone is giving you, whatever someone is showing you in a product, that it is actually as valuable as they say it is and ask for proof, you know, go check them, ask if they've done it before, even go message the people who have been customers of theirs before see what experiences they've had.

Matthew (00:22:38.385)

That's a long process, but it is worth it because you definitely don't want to lose money. And as an industry, we don't want that to happen because then chatbots get a bad rap and it looks bad for everyone.

Jam (00:22:49.695)

Yeah, 100%. We had an episode on why people hate chatbots.

Matthew (00:22:54.045)

Yeah, I haven't, I haven't listened to that episode yet. I actually saw it while I was scrambling to get the questions together for this and I was like, that's one thing when I educate people like we said earlier, like why hasn't this technology taken off. You know, in 2016 it was all the rage, I actually started tracking them then. I didn't think there was enough of an ecosystem to be effective. As an entrepreneur what I look for is an industry where there are enough people like Hillary and Matthew Black like you, all the great people we have in those chatbot communities on Facebook advertising plug here.

Matthew (00:23:34.095)

If you're looking to be a chatpreneur, get in those Facebook groups. They're gold. There are people that are doing this already and seeing that you can learn from on a daily basis. So the reason why people hate bots is because they aren't well designed, they aren't connecting with people. The other day I was showing a bot to potential client because they have an RV park. And I said, OK, well, that's kind of like the hotel reservation.

Matthew (00:24:01.905)

That's what I did. And your site can help you. So we went to a hotel site. I'm not going to name what it was, but the first thing they asked for was my name, my phone number and my email. And I'm like, no one's going to give you that information right off the bat. And your bounce rates just went up. That was a bad way to design the bot. It should get to know your problem.

Matthew (00:24:20.895)

Where do you want to stay? How many people should get to know you around its parameters? And then it should ask for information, like if you went out with someone on a first date and they asked, you know, where you lived and your address right away, you probably bounce and ditch that guy. Same thing with chatbots, you know, and that's why chatbots have gotten a bad rap and our job if you're selling them, if you're trying to uphold the chatbot industry, per say is you need to tell a better story and you need to tell a story of why they can be good and how good they can be and then deliver to the fullness of the bot. I think over the next five years, especially with my generation, they're going to trust the bot's more and you'll see a steady climb to where we're trusted.

Jam (00:25:08.655)

So it's good to be in this spot, so to speak. So in five years.

Matthew (00:25:13.515)

I think I don't know, Jam, if you believe that as well but the crazy part is when I come up to people and I talk to them about it, they really look at me with a confused face. What is that? So the fact that I can walk on the street and 8 out of 10 people, maybe even more, don't know what a chatbot is. And we've already seen its potential with a brand like Nordstrom's deploying one. Places like Deloitte and other big businesses that will trickle down at some point when people see it's effective, they'll wonder, oh, that solved my problem.

Matthew (00:25:45.255)

I wonder if we could use that. And when they do that, they'll go to someone who's trusted, who's an expert, who's done it before to produce. And I think right now that's where I'm at. As Hilary said in that episode, placing yourself as an authority is a very smart thing to do. I totally agree with her. I think people don't want to get sold in the Internet age. They want to go to someone they can trust.

Matthew (00:26:08.355)

They want to build a relationship. And now's the time to jump in and get on the bandwagon. And I know it sounds weird because I'm basically giving the competition right now my advice as to how to do it. But in all honesty, there's so many small businesses that are going to be wanting a chatbot that I can't even cover a fraction of the market myself or even with a team of 10. So there's going to be plenty of opportunities to serve people, and it's just about the willingness to learn and keep up.

Jam (00:26:37.485)

Yep, totally, totally agree. I have actually noted down the Facebook group because I know you started a Facebook group just recently.

Matthew (00:26:45.865)

I did.

Jam (00:26:46.245)

Yep. So maybe you're okay with that? We can put that in the show notes. So for those who are listening, we want to join in. Matthew just started it. But if you'd like to know more, obviously Matthew can tell you more about that.

Managing Potential Leads

Jam (00:26:58.965)

So we've already talked a lot about educating the market, et cetera. Are there any other challenges that we probably missed or you'd like to add that chatpreneurs out there should look out for or maybe some that you've already experienced?

Matthew (00:27:14.085)

Definitely. My biggest challenge is lowering my ego and understanding when I need help and when to maybe outsource something that I don't need to be doing that isn't my highest value. And on top of that, I'd say managing potential leads expectations. For instance, I really wanted to do the project. It was a fun project. I thought it was for a good cause. The potential lead had the expectation that a bot could be done in X amount of time.

Matthew (00:27:45.975)

And the reality is it wasn't. If anything, when you're pitching a deadline for a bot, always give it more time than you think. You know, there's a fallacy called the planning fallacy where as humans we tend to overestimate how much we can do in said time. And if you give yourself more time and you deliver on that deadline, it just looks better. You know, I got six weeks instead of eight, you know, set the expectation realistic and then your customer will be happier.

Matthew (00:28:14.625)

But don't let them run you over. Don't get too desperate. You know, I could have taken that, but if I don't get it done, it does nothing. And that's just wasted time. So that is definitely, definitely the biggest barrier that I have. And staying on top of all the content and educating yourself, because there's so much new information on a daily basis, you know, even within our communities. So there's not enough time in a day to stay up with all that information and all the things that you need to do.

Matthew (00:28:48.975)

So you need to be more selective about the information you're taking in and educating yourself on. And that takes a lot of discipline because I could go down a rabbit hole me reading about chatbots for six hours.

Jam (00:29:01.125)

Yeah

Matthew (00:29:01.425)

But I need to be building chatbots. I need to be selling chatbots, so I need to go after the most relevant information that's going to help me out. So as much as I want to know, oh, this A.I. system, that's going to be revolutionary, I have to ask the question before I get in there and learn about a recurrent neural network or something that is more technological than where I'm at.

Matthew (00:29:23.925)

Is that literally going to help me with what I know I can deliver on? Is that going to push me forward or should I find someone who is more technologically savvy than me, who knows more about that? And that's their domain to expedite that process, I view myself as an architect that's building the building as per your company Jam. And you need to know kind of you need to stay in the lane and know what's most valuable to you. I'd say those are the the biggest barriers and then keeping the faith and optimism.

Matthew (00:29:58.775)

Even when you're in a prototype stage and the money is not rolling in necessarily, you're not seeing the tangible difference right away.

What does the Future Hold for Chatpreneurs?

Jam (00:30:07.895)

Awesome, awesome, awesome stuff. OK. Last question before we go. So what does the future hold for budding chatpreneurs? Is it bright? It seems like it is bright. As you mentioned, we are definitely in a good space at the moment, but those are just really, really beginning or just still thinking about it, whether this is something they'd like to do. Do you have any advice for them?

Matthew (00:30:31.265)

I would say it is a hopeful, bright space to be in because there are examples of these bots working out. There's already companies that have deployed them. Already been two billion dollars worth of transactions in the space. Those are only big corporate companies when it gets down there. That is your opportunity to shine. That is where, you know, you have an Instagram page with some followers. Go find the small and mid-sized businesses, go direct message them contact them, have a conversation.

Matthew (00:31:05.915)

And if you know enough about chat box, that does not mean you need to be the most savvy person with A.I or an LP. That stuff will evolve around you. And your job is to figure out how to package that where it's useful for a client. So my biggest piece of advice is if you see something, not even just chatbots, but if there's another thing in the market that I don't see and you believe it has potential, but it's not quite there yet, it's in the Wild West, you know, start building up your tool belt for the possibilities that are going to happen when you know that floodgate opens, be the one who's prepared.

Matthew (00:31:45.815)

And that doesn't mean quit your job and take the biggest risk in the world. That just means that, you know, in the time that you have to be educated enough and take that bold risk. And if you know there's going to be a market there, be hopeful, be optimistic. I believe optimism has the greatest ROI out of anything. And this space, to me, there's nothing but being optimistic because there's going to be so many people who need this product.

Matthew (00:32:12.155)

And right now is the best time to jump in hone the skills to to deliver value. So if there's one thing you take away from this interview, if you're out there, you're thinking of jumping in, do it. Have faith in yourself and know that there's a whole community of people willing to help you out. You're not alone.

Jam (00:32:33.065)

Awesome chat with you, Matthew. Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today and to share your journey and thoughts on that subject.

Matthew (00:32:42.075)

Sorry, I hope I didn't run on too much there. I tried to give a pretty concise answers, but I'm a decently philosophical guy. So, you know, I like to get into the values.

Jam (00:32:52.965)

It was fantastic. So just two more things before I end this. Facebook group, so you'll share that link to us and we'll put that definitely in the show notes for those who are listening.

Matthew (00:33:05.285)

Of course, my posting schedule, there will be hopefully once a day, if not at least Monday, Wednesday, Friday.

Matthew (00:33:11.855)

And for those who are interested, it's called The Chatbot Closer's Club. And all we discuss in there, we don't discuss the design. That's for another group. We don't discuss the technology much. What we discuss is how do you pitch an object like chatbots? And some of us in the community, including myself, have had difficulty doing that. And we're all learning and growing together and hopefully getting to that point where we're bridging that gap and getting people to say, yes.

Jam (00:33:41.945)

OK, so are you sharing a 60 second pitch? I'll give you 60 seconds.

Matthew (00:33:47.105)

You'll give me 60 seconds. My God, let's. Let's do it, let's see if I get it on on first command, it's not the it's not the most solid yet, but we'll see if I get it. All right, everybody, I want you to picture that you're walking into a new coffee shop, that smell of coffee there. You are anticipating a great cup, but the barista at the front counter never says hi to you. After 10 minutes, you're frustrated you walk out.

Matthew (00:34:15.605)

Unfortunately for business owners out there, this is happening to you every single day. People are coming to your website. They're going to your Facebook page. They're going to your points of entry. And they're not getting a friendly hello. They're not getting the personal service they need. And why? Because I only have two thumbs and one mouth. Everyone does. There's not enough time in a day to respond quickly and efficiently to everyone who comes through your doors.

Matthew (00:34:44.075)

Definitely not within ten minutes, but there is hope that you can have a conversation with those customers, and that is through chatbots. 24/7 personalized, conversations with potential customers that will take you from frustrated people leaving to winning customers. My company personalizes them and helps you connect with your customers. So stop losing customers and start having a better relationship with them. Let's have a conversation about conversations. Go to the ChatBotGuy.com.

Closing

Jam (00:35:17.285)

So like Matthew, if you love our content and would like to be one of our guests and join the conversation, we'd love to hear from you. If you're an Anchor.FM you can leave us a voice message we will listen and we will respond. If you found us on Social, our usual podcast app, drop a comment, join the conversation, or you can visit our page at TheConversologist.Show and tell us what you think. Music that was composed by Carla Bacara and this podcast and images were produced by my podcast partner in Crime Rew Shearer. Till the next episode.

Jam (00:35:51.815)

Thanks for listening and keep the conversation going.